Matt Bowles: My guest today is Justin Orgias. He is a digital nomad dad who slowly travels the world full-time with his wife and two kids. He works remotely in software sales and also creates travel content with his wife to help other families navigate the move into the digital nomad lifestyle. He and his family have been featured on CNN USA Today. And he will be a featured speaker at the upcoming Black Travel Summit.

Justin, welcome to the show.

Justin Orgias: Hello, Matt. Thank you for having me on.

Matt Bowles: Brother, I am so excited to have you here. Let’s just start off by setting the scene and talking about where we are recording from today.

I am actually in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Asheville, North Carolina, on the east coast of the United States today. Where are you?

Justin Orgias: Oh, that’s beautiful. I’m in Mexico City. I’m currently in a co-working space because it’s 7 p. m. here and my kids are probably bouncing off the walls at home. Definitely a handful, but Blue Ridge, it’s one of my favorite places to road trip out to from Atlanta.

Matt Bowles: It’s only a few hours from The A, man, but you are in one of my favorite cities. And I feel like we need to start off talking about CDMX. Can you share a little bit about your experience in Mexico City with the family and what some of the highlights have been there for the family?

Justin Orgias: My first time in CDMX was in 2023. So came down here for thanksgiving and my mom was out here, my wife, my kids, and we had a ball. It was chilly out here. The weather was nice and crispy, had a great time for a week. And this year we decided to make this our home base. So, we are actually have been here since March and are enjoying it. It’s been chaotic. It’s been vibrant, but honestly, it’s an amazing city.

Matt Bowles: It is an incredible place. I try to go through whenever I can. I was just there in October. I was there over Halloween, actually, and we went to some pretty wild and interesting Halloween parties. But for me, man, as long as I could just end the night with late night spicy tacos on my way home from the club or wherever, I am just happy.

Like, whatever else happened in the day, as long as I end the day with tacos in Mexico City, it’s been a good day for me.

Justin Orgias: Oh yeah, for sure. I mean the food scene in general here is just massive and of course the street food is to me the best. So yeah, we’ve been eating our share of tacos, putting on a little bit of taco weight. Yeah, wouldn’t trade it for the world.

Matt Bowles: Well, I want to start off with your background, give folks a little bit of context on you. And before we even talk about where you grew up, can you share a little bit about your parents’ story and where they’re from and what their experience was like?

Justin Orgias: So, my parents are second-generation West Indian Caribbean.  My dad was born in Grenada, the Island of Grenada. And my mom’s mom is from Grenada. As kids, my dad had immigrated to Canada as a kid. And my mother had immigrated to Canada from New York when she was a child. And so, they both have the same heritage, the same background, which is funny because Grenada is such a small island.

And a beautiful island, by the way. But my parents met in Toronto. I think they got together when they were in high school or just after high school. And of course, having the cultural background familiarity, they got together great. The rest is history.

Matt Bowles: Well, as you know, Toronto is one of my favorite cities. I went to high school in Buffalo, New York. So, I was up in Toronto all the time. But for people who do not know about Toronto, they do not know about the Caribbean immigrant cultural dynamics in Toronto. They’ve never heard of Carabana. Can you share a little bit about what it’s like in Toronto, and particularly the Caribbean culture.

Justin Orgias: So, Toronto is my birthplace, born and raised, lived there till I was 14 years old. It’s funny because when you meet people in Toronto, new folks, typically you’ll ask them where their family is from. That’s how many immigrants there are in Toronto. We’re all from somewhere else. And so, growing up, I grew up with a friend group that included Koreans, Indians, Pakistanis, kids from all over the globe, right?

And I think it always gave me that sense of cultural understanding that the world is huge, and everybody’s family is from somewhere, my family is from somewhere else. It was also normal for me to live in a diverse society. But yeah, the Caribbean population is huge.

I believe a lot of Caribbeans migrated to Toronto in the ’70s or ’60s. And it was either Toronto, London, or New York City. And so, I guess my family chose Toronto. And growing up, it was normal for me to grow up with all different backgrounds, and cultures, going to Carabana. That is a Caribbean celebration parade that they have every year. Toronto is one of the biggest in the world.

And then we had all kinds of festivals, the Greek festival. I think it’s Sri Lanka Day in Toronto. Uh, but we had all sorts of festivals, Italians mixing with like Chinese mixing with Koreans. And so, it also brings about a huge food scene. So, you can get. fusion food of all sorts of combinations all over Toronto.

So, I miss it. I really love Toronto. It was a great childhood for me to grow up there.

Matt Bowles: And can you talk a little bit about your experiences going back to Grenada as a kid, as you were coming up and how that part of your identity developed?

Justin Orgias: So, growing up as a kid, we took a couple trips to Grenada. Anytime we went, we would stay for about a month. And we still have a lot of family there, aunts, uncles who either never left the island or who went back to retire. And so, we always had family to stay with. And I think going there just always gave me a sense of pride. This is where a lot of my ancestors come from.

It was magical, man. I mean, Grenada is paradise. It is mountainous. It has beautiful beaches, fresh fruit, and ackee, and shellfish, and oxtail, and you know, all of the delights of the Caribbean. And then, of course, they also have two big times to go to Grenada—Christmas and then around Carnival.

So, Carnival is in August, Christmas is Christmas. Around that time, it’s just a party throughout the whole city. So, I remember being a kid, marching through the streets at Carnival time with my parents right next to me. It was all so normal, seeing people jumping up in the streets, drinking, partying, just having a good time, experiencing just joy.

The dancing, the gyrating, all of it, you know, from the time I was like 8, 9, 10 years old, I’m seeing that. And then my parents, of course, brought that influence back to Toronto. My parents threw amazing parties, barbecues, cookouts, and just got together with family whenever they could.

Matt Bowles: And then can you talk about when you eventually moved to Atlanta and what that transition was like for you at that age?

Justin Orgias: I was 14. So, first of all, we had some cousins living in Atlanta on my dad and my mom’s side. So, we had visited Georgia a couple of times, the suburbs of Atlanta. And every time we went, it was amazing. We had a great time. The Georgia suburbs are very suburban. When you think of a traditional American suburb, I would think to like, The Roswell, Alpharetta, Sandy Springs area, it’s very many subdivisions that are spread out, very car dependent.

But the subdivisions that my cousins lived in all had like their own pools, their own tennis courts, their own basketball courts. And so, I’m like, this is awesome as a kid. So, my parents got job offers in Atlanta. They had the opportunity to make more money and have a lower cost of living because Toronto is very expensive.

And so, it was an opportunity for just a better lifestyle for us. And so, I was super excited. Couldn’t wait. Told all my friends and moving to Atlanta where Usher and little John and everybody is, you know, this is back when TI and Jeezy were like big. So, this is around 2009 when I got there, I honestly, I did not fit in.

So, I had kind of a tough time fitting in. I was just going into high school and had left all my friends back home in Toronto. And to be honest, I miss Toronto a lot. I always thought about going back and visiting every summer. But yeah, when I heard about the move, I was excited.

Matt Bowles: Well, can you talk a little bit from there about your career trajectory and meeting your wife and what your life was like up to the point when you decided to become a nomadic family?

Justin Orgias: Yeah, so I had a traditional high school experience going to school in Atlanta. Once I got adjusted, obviously had a friend group, played basketball, went to parties, all that kind of stuff. Couldn’t wait to graduate and be off on my own. I went off to college for one year, ended up not handling that independence very responsibly, and came back to live with my parents in the second year.

And so that’s when I got into working full time. My parents were like, “Hey, you’re not on a scholarship that you failed out. You need to get a job”. I got into sales right away, started selling sneakers at the mall and just quickly realized I need to hustle, get my degree and do more with my life. My wife and I actually met because we were in the same area. She had gone to the same high school as me, but our high school was so huge, we never met each other. And so, years later we connected on social media. I had moved from selling sneakers to getting into the transportation industry. I was selling leases to small businesses for over-the-road trucks, box trucks, stuff like that.

So, I’ve always been into sales, I just kind of fell into it. And my wife was just wrapping up her degree in college. When we met, we hit it off instantly. She was adventurous. She wanted to do a lot in life and had lofty goals. She ended up getting into finance and I stayed in sales. And so, we got together.

We just couldn’t spend time apart. You know, we were together all the time. We quickly got pregnant, and had our son, Xavier. We bought our house, and we were on the way to just live in the American dream. So bought our home, had two cars in the driveway. We go into the office at nine to five every day. And we really thought that’s what life would look like until the pandemic.

So, I won’t say that travel was just a huge part of our story in the beginning, but the pandemic really changed our whole mindset about that.

Matt Bowles: Can you talk about that mindset change? I think it’s really interesting that you hadn’t done a lot of international travel before then. So, can you take us through that? What was the mindset shift that was caused by the pandemic and how did this idea to sell everything and travel the world full time with no base with a family, how did that idea come about?

Justin Orgias: Yeah, it’s funny, man, because I never considered it. Leaving Toronto to go to the U.S., you get to the U.S., and you think, well, I want to live the American dream. I want to make as much money as I can, climb the ladder, all that kind of stuff. And then COVID hit, and again, we had our son. He was about six months old, so he was born in 2019. And, once my wife’s maternity leave was over, we started dropping him off to daycare, and we’d just gotten used to that come 2020.

And then March 2020 hits and the daycare shuts down. They’re like, don’t bring your son back here. Our jobs tell us to work from home, and I think it shifted the mindset of like, why couldn’t we have done this the whole time? We had pretty much gotten adjusted to our son being home with us and working remotely at the same time.

So, it wasn’t easy, but we had it set up to where he’s in the living room playing. We’re taking breaks throughout the day, kind of alternating, watching him and until it got to be too much. And we hired a nanny, but it shifted our mindset in a way of, well, do kids really need to be in a daycare all day? Do they need to sit in the classroom all day?

And do we need to be sitting in a cubicle to do our job that we can do from home? Right. And so further on into the pandemic, I was like, I’m not going back into an office, even when things open up. And that’s really what drove me into the tech industry because so much of their work culture was working remotely.

And so, I got out of the automotive industry. My friend referred me to a tech company and got into selling software to other businesses. And I was like, I love it here. All the perks, the benefits and to work from home.

Matt Bowles: And can you talk then about your transition into the full-time digital nomad lifestyle, also in terms of the thinking about wanting to raise your kids outside the U.S. and Canada, traveling around the world, that sort of mentality, and then what the actual steps were that launched you into that lifestyle?

Justin Orgias: So, I’ll preface by saying it was a turbulent time in the U.S., and I don’t think a lot of us really sit back and think about it, but you have the 2020 election, Trump winning, and then you have protests going on about COVID, and then also protests around police brutality.  So, I think our feelings around living in the U.S. started to shift as well of, whoa, what’s happening here? It wasn’t until my wife, and I went on a vacation for the first time. So once travel opened up, we took a trip to Aruba and left our son at home. And this was like our first time getting away. We had not been on a plane in like four years. And so, our first time getting away, getting on vacation.

We booked a boutique hotel in Aruba instead of an all-inclusive resort and that allowed us to leave the hotel and go see the island. And we rented a car, we literally drove around the entire island and met so many amazing locals who put us on to like incredible food and talked about the culture, the history, the Dutch influence of Aruba and we were like, “Oh my God, we love this”.

We feel more alive than we had in years, right? I remember sitting on the beach in Aruba, the most beautiful beach I’ve ever seen in my life. And me and my wife were just like, how do we do this more often? It wasn’t immediately like; how do we leave the U.S. and live abroad and travel full time? But how do we take more vacations or travel more often?

And so, when we came back home, we started looking at places to travel with kids, family friendly places. We noticed a lot of content creators were blogging and YouTubing and getting on Instagram, talking about:  “You should go here with your kids. It’s got this kind of vibe. We brought our toddler here and loved it.”

And so, we kept seeing like Playa del Carmen, Mexico come up. We would see places like Puerto Vallarta and in places in Europe as well, bring your kid to Paris or Spain. And so that’s when the wheels really started to turn. And on top of that, we kept on seeing the same content creators over and over on YouTube, and we’re like, how do these people afford to travel this much?

It’d be lovely to just travel all the time now that we work remotely, but we still have bills to pay back home. We still have a mortgage. We still have car notes. We still have all the utilities, the daycare, everything like that. So, I think it all kind of clicked together for us of like, well, what if we just didn’t have those things?

What if we sold it and what if we lived abroad or lived somewhere more affordable to where we could travel more often? So, started doing some research looking at different cities in the U.S. that were more affordable. And I’m like, honestly, if I’m going to leave Atlanta, I want to live somewhere that I’m excited about.

We started looking at the possibility of living outside the states, right? And then you look at the cost of living in Mexico and places in Latin America, and it’s like, hey, we can really do this. I think what really sparked the move, my wife was totally on board. I was kind of hesitant and doing research and looking into it.

She’s like, let’s just go. But what really sparked it was the housing market shifted in Atlanta dramatically come 2021. We were seeing houses selling for double the price, right? We’re just like, whoa, this can really set us up. I think a lot of times people are held up on if I sell my house, then I have to find another house to live in and it’s all expensive, but prices were going up.

And so we thought, okay, well, if we sold our house and moved to Mexico, Or moved abroad, that can really jumpstart our travel lifestyle and back to just like the content creator piece of it, we were noticing a lot of creators making content about traveling or traveling with their boyfriend or significant other, but we didn’t see a lot of families out there traveling and living abroad full time.

And so, the other piece to that is we really wanted to be the ones who could bring that representation where like, hey, we can travel with our kids and document it. And we would be some of the only families out there, Black families especially, bringing that content to the internet.

And so, our next move was to just take a trip to Mexico. We checked out Playa del Carmen, Tulum, and Merida. And we really loved the Yucatan Riviera Maya area. Once we got back from that trip, we were ready to go. We were like, let’s do this. And we put the plan in motion.

Matt Bowles: And so, take us a little bit on your journey. You sell the house, you sell everything, you roll out. And where do you start?

Justin Orgias: So initially we were like, let’s go to Playa del Carmen. We kept hearing about it. It’s just South of Cancun. It’s close enough to get back to Atlanta. Things just aren’t working out. But at the same time, we also had another baby on the way. We had our daughter. So, my son was about two, my wife is 35 weeks pregnant.

And we were like, we need to have this baby in the U.S., and we started pretty much planning on once she’s born and she gets a passport, we’re leaving. We’re selling it all. So, we wanted to do the Riviera Maya, but then we thought more about it and wanted a little more infrastructure like a major city.

So, Mexico is always top of mind, but we shifted from Playa del Carmen to Guadalajara, Mexico. The reason we chose Guadalajara, it is the second largest city in Mexico. They name it actually the Silicon Valley of Mexico, because it’s a big tech hub. And so, a lot of big Tech companies are based there.

Microsoft, I believe Oracle has an office out there. And it’s very modern and has multiple hospitals, multiple schools, and great modern housing to choose from. So that was really important to us. We’re like, hey, we’re traveling with like a newborn baby and a toddler. Like we need to have things in place.

We felt that way at the time. Yeah, we pretty much, we did all of the logistical things. We listed the house. We had an estate sale to sell all of like the furniture stuff that we didn’t want to keep. And it’s great because they come in, they price everything and then people come in and buy it and you make a little bit of money.

And then we put some sentimental things, clothing and stuff like that into storage. Once the house was sold, and our daughter had her passport. We booked a one-way ticket to Guadalajara, Mexico.

Matt Bowles: Well, you guys have at this point lived in a number of different countries. I want to ask you about some of them, but I also want to ask you about how you structure your travel and select your locations.

You not only do a whole bunch of research and deep dives in these locations, but you actually do scouting trips before you decide to take the whole family there for an extended period. Can you talk a little bit about that process? And then the next location I think I want to ask you about is Columbia and what some of the highlights are before you there.

Justin Orgias: So, yeah, we do a lot of research on Google, and the internet is free. So, we utilize that. We also join a lot of Facebook expat and nomad groups. So that has been probably our best resource of all, is to join. If you just search for expats in a certain city, you’ll find groups of minorities, you’ll find groups of just general people, you’ll find groups of women who live in these cities that are primarily from the U.S., the U.K., or Canada, and they’ll talk about their experiences. They’ll answer any questions that you have. And that’s what we did for Guadalajara. That’s why we chose it is because their community was very strong. They had a lot of families living there.

We just connected and vibed with them a lot over the internet. There’s another website that we use for cost-of-living calculations. And so, we try to utilize that to see, okay, what are our housing expenses going to be? What do taxes look like? Visa requirements? And then as far as scouting trips, that’s new for us.

We just started doing that this year because of all the mistakes we made last year. I’ll talk about the biggest mistake I would say is we lived in Guadalajara for about eight months. We liked it. Our kids loved it, but we were getting a little bit bored. And so, once our lease was over and our visa expired, we decided to go to Columbia.

My wife was really campaigning for Columbia. I think she really loved the cost of living in Medellin and just the modern housing there. And that is true. Like it has great modern housing, great infrastructure, great cost of living. But I was like, I don’t know about Medellin Columbia. Let’s check it out. So, we literally left Mexico, packed up everything, and went to Medellin Columbia, and stayed in an Airbnb for about six weeks.

And we were supposed to be looking for housing, which neighborhoods we liked, schools, all that kind of stuff. And I think Medellin is an amazing city. It is hard to be there with children, from my perspective. That’s been my general vibe of it. What we did love was the healthy culture that they had there, everybody was super fit, super into health and fitness.

The men, the women, everybody looks good in Medellín, Colombia. It’s like Miami. And we really liked the housing was amazing. The people were very friendly and warm as well. But you didn’t see a lot of families and kids just roaming around the city like that. I would say Medellín has a lot of party culture and a party vibe. A lot of bachelor trips are held there. They’ve been in the news for sex tourism and stuff like that. And we noticed it, you know, you, you kind of see it when you get there. But it also, I think, saving races, like the amazing local culture there. The locals are amazing, friendly and great. And there’s a large digital nomad community there, too. Just living their life.

You know, they’re not there to party. They’re just hanging out, but we did not encounter too many families. And if you did, I think they were more spread out on the outskirts of the city. So that was my general experience with Medellin. Again, we stayed for about six weeks, decided, no, we’re not going to look for long term housing here.

And then we went over to Bogota and stayed there for about I want to say two weeks, but yeah, we decided Columbia wasn’t going to be for us. We were going to check out other places on the Caribbean coast, but we were like, we don’t want to sweat all day and deal with the heat. So, then we went to our next stop, which was Rio de Janeiro.

Matt Bowles: Let’s talk about that, man. Brazil is one of my all-time favorite countries in the world. I was just there in December, which was my fourth time in Brazil. And this time I went to Salvador de Bahia. And I was hanging out there for a while, but my very first time in Brazil was in Rio and I still remember it vividly to this day. It was a decade ago, but it feels like it was yesterday, but I want to hear from your perspective and also as a family because that’s a really important lens as well, how was Rio de Janeiro for you and also for the family?

Justin Orgias: I’m sure I’ve shared this online as well: Rio has been my favorite city that I’ve ever traveled to this far.

And I definitely want to check out Salvador, Bahia, Sao Paulo, just more cities in Brazil. It’s like on the bucket list to explore. My perspective again, I just fell in love. From the day that we got there, seeing the diversity, the number one thing that struck me was just how many shades of color of people there were in Brazil.

I just felt like I blended in as a black person after being in Mexico and Colombia for so long. I also just felt like the kids had a great time, too. It was super walkable in Rio, which we’re always looking for a walkable city. The public transit was actually really great. And we just saw kids and families out in the streets all hours of the day, all parts of the city. Like, kids were just having fun playing soccer at the parks, at the beach. The beaches were kid-friendly. We had a great time in Rio. Honestly, we thought about just, like, setting up shop and saying, this is home now, and it was such a stark contrast again to Columbia, with just kids being able to be, you know, free and outside.

And so, one thing that I heard about while we were in Medellín, we were just wondering, I think we asked an Uber driver, like, why are we not seeing as many families and kids out and about? One person responded that after the Pablo Escobar days, a lot of parents, a lot of people were just paranoid, you know, about letting their kids roam around the streets and, and they built these big high rises, these big complexes that took 10 minutes to like to walk out of the complex.

And I think that they pretty much like added extra security. And so, you didn’t see that in Rio. And Rio, it was just like, you walk out of your building and two blocks away is the beach. We stayed in the neighborhood of Leblon. Right on the beach when we got there, there’s this big kid friendly section of the beach where they have a little playground set up, they have people watching the kids, and they have toys and all that kind of stuff.

And I’m like, oh my god, thank you. Like, cause taking toddlers to the beach sucks. You know what I mean? They’re getting sand in their hair and all that kind of stuff, but like, they really are thoughtful when it comes to children in Rio de Janeiro. I remember even going to Sugarloaf Mountain, one of the most popular tourist destinations.

When you get to the top of Sugarloaf Mountain, there’s a playground at the top, and they’re selling kids snacks and stuff when you get there. For me, it was like they’re just thinking about kids in every aspect, and so it makes being a parent so much easier.

Matt Bowles:I love that perspective, man. I think that is so important in terms of that lens.

Because for me, I was there too. And I was noticing all sorts of amazing things about Rio. You know, I went for two months the first time that I went, and I literally didn’t leave Rio to see any other part of Brazil for the whole two months. I was like, I’m not going to take 59 days of this if I can have 60, I’m taking them all. This is unbelievable.

And I was noticing like how they have this incredible public exercise equipment all around the beach.  You don’t have to pay to go to a gym, you just go out to the beach, and you can play sports, but you can also work out on the equipment and lift weights and do this stuff.

And everybody there is able to be fit and healthy for free. And they really prioritize a lot of that kind of stuff. So, it’s really interesting and encouraging for me to hear that you felt as parents that they do the same and they have the same attentiveness towards kids and parents.

Justin Orgias: Yeah, absolutely. And you hit the nail on the head. It’s like the beaches are all public. They don’t privatize a lot of the beaches in Rio, and they just design the city amazingly well. And I think a lot of times too, we have to kind of compromise between a beach town and a major city but Rio is one of the only ones that’s both smushed together.

I did get some time away from the kids too. One of my childhood friends actually met us in Rio. He’s a digital nomad. I’ve known him since like fourth grade. He came out there. So, we explored some of the nightlife together and just had an amazing time, man. The people are just so warm and friendly too. So yeah. And then the food is great. I mean, Rio just, to me, it just doesn’t miss.

Matt Bowles: Yeah, 100 percent man. I agree entirely. And so, I love to hear that it’s also amazing for parents and kids. Well, I also want to ask you about another place that you and I have both spent time in, which is Spain. And I’m wondering if you can share a little bit about your relationship with Spain. I know you’ve been a few different times and your experiences have evolved over time.

Justin Orgias: Spain, the first time we went, I think we went for about two weeks around Christmas break. So, we were still technically living in Guadalajara, but we left our apartment and just went to Spain for two weeks.

And at that time, we landed in Madrid. And then we traveled by train to Seville and to Malaga as well. The reason we went over Christmas break is because my wife and I were so scared to really work in that time zone. We really stuck to Latin America because the time zone is so similar to the U.S., we work remote jobs.

So, we needed to like to use PTO or holidays to go over there for an extended period. We enjoyed Spain, man. We love the culture. The laid-backness of the country is just phenomenal. The concept of siestas, just the work-life balance, and then of course walkability and just being in Europe in general. It just had a different vibe to it.

And I think in Spain for me as a dad, I just felt like I didn’t have my guard up as much as I typically do in Latin American countries. Just because when you have kids and you’re lugging around a bunch of stuff, you’re kind of just always watching your back and making sure everybody’s safe. But in Spain, it’s just, I know there’s still crime here, but at the same time, I just feel very safe.

And I think it’s true, like, it is a very safe country as well to be in. So again, we stayed in Madrid, and that stark difference between city life in Madrid to going to, like, southern Spain, Seville and Málaga. Huge difference. It’s like two different worlds. We liked all of it. The only reason we didn’t base there longer is because of the time zone.

Matt Bowles: Yeah. Spain is such a fascinating place, and the different regions of Spain are so fundamentally culturally different, which is why I just keep going back and just staying in different places. Like, I’ll stay in the Basque Country in the north for a month and then go and stay in Catalonia for a month and then go and stay in Andalusia for a month.

And you just have entirely different history, culture, language, people, but it’s all technically the same country, but you’re immersing in very different cultures and very different histories. And I just find Spain to be such a fascinating place. The other spot that I want to ask you about is your trip to Morocco, which is very close to Spain, and how you spent Christmas day with the family.

Justin Orgias: Oh my God. So Morocco was an on-the-fly trip. We booked it at the super last minute. So, we knew we were going to Spain. I think three days before the trip to Spain. Me and my wife were looking at each other like, hey, Morocco and Africa are right here. It’s not too far from Malaga, which was going to be our last stop. So, let’s just include that in the trip and just stay for a few days, right.

And this is right over Christmas, flew into Marrakesh, and I believe it was Christmas Eve. And so, at the last minute, my wife is like, I’m going to plan an excursion for like our second day here. She had planned for us to do an all-day excursion through the Atlas Mountains.

So, it started off at like seven in the morning. We met up with our tour guide. He was serving us mint tea and just explaining the deep culture of the Berber people of Marrakesh. And we did camel rides through the Atlas Mountains. We did a hot air balloon ride when my wife and son did the hot air balloon ride.

It was just amazing to spend Christmas with the family doing these amazing, incredible things. Like we didn’t buy any gifts or anything like that. The kids weren’t asking for any gifts. They had an amazing time. It was stressful, but it was worth it. I know I was kicking and screaming when my wife booked the excursion, but I enjoyed it. It’s one of my favorite travel memories to this day. And even back to the hot air balloon ride, I didn’t want to take our baby up there, because she was still about a year old at the time. I’m like, eh, I’m not going to bring her up on the hot air balloon. And one of the women working at like the breakfast spot where we did the hot air balloon was like, I’ll watch the kid. Like you go up there and enjoy yourself. And I’m like, what? Like totally just something that doesn’t happen on the Western side of the world, right? I didn’t take her up on the offer, but it was just sweet that she offered.

Matt Bowles: I love that story, man. And I think it’s also just so emblematic of what the larger digital nomad lifestyle can be in terms of moving away from this materialist consumption that we’re socialized into and sort of leaving that and moving towards a life of rich experiences. And so, I think that’s really beautiful that you’re teaching your kids that there doesn’t have to be presents and gifts and physical material items. There can be an amazing family experience that you’ll always remember for the rest of your life. I think that’s so special.

Justin Orgias: I do too, man. And it’s funny because my son oftentimes asks, when are we going home? I remember early in the travel journey, he would ask that around two or three years old, like, you know, I’m having fun, but like, when are we going home? And I used to get sad about that because I figured, ah, man, like he’s going to be scarred for life. We ripped his home life away from him. And I’ll just say, well, this is home for now. And home is wherever we are as a family.

And he’s like, okay. And like, just goes on about his day. And you don’t realize what is conditionally normal to us? For kids, it’s all new experiences. They’re not used to anything because they’re kids. They’re so young. So, if you tell them, hey, this is how we live our lifestyle, they enjoy it. As long as we’re spending time with them, giving them attention and they have other children to play with, they’re good.

Matt Bowles: Well, I want to ask you about that in terms of linking up with other families, in terms of giving your kids connections with other kids to play with and stuff like that. And I think what I want to ask is about your upcoming trip to Belize with the Noma Collective.

Can you share a little bit about the Noma Collective, what it is for people that have never heard of it and then what is happening in Belize?

Justin Orgias: So, Noma Collective is a digital nomadic cohort. They’re similar to Remote Year that most people have heard of, where they plan trips every month or every other month to different locations around the world.

So, they have Spain, they have places in Africa, Mexico, Brazil, and every summer, they’re now launching a digital nomad family trip cohort. So essentially, we’re going to be on a resort in Belize for three weeks with 10 or so other families, they’re going to provide childcare and co-working spaces. So, the kids have something to do from nine to five throughout the day.

And the parents have a place to work. And outside of work hours, they also plan excursions, and fun activities for the whole family. So essentially, it’s a digital nomad cohort for families. This is just part of their offering. And we’re going to be there from July 21st to August 11th this summer. And are so excited to link up with some other families doing the same thing we do.

Matt Bowles:  I love that, man. We’ll definitely link that up in the show notes for anybody that’s interested in checking it out and learning more information and possibly even meeting up with you guys there if they’re interested in doing it this summer. Can you share a little bit more about some of the logistics of this lifestyle, like if there’s parents or maybe expecting parents that are listening to this and kind of starting to think about maybe this is possible for them for the first time.

But how would I handle this and this sort of logistics? How does childcare work abroad? How do you think about schooling and education for your kids as they’re getting older? You know, those sorts of things.

Justin Orgias: Yeah, absolutely. So, this is a huge topic that we get asked all the time on our Instagram, on our website.  We’ve actually started offering consultations to just talk to other parents about how to navigate this and plan it out for your family. And so, for us personally, one of the biggest things for us is going to be childcare. We can’t get anything done if we don’t have the bandwidth to work and hang out with the kids.

And so, for me and my wife. In our first year, we both were working full time, remotely and when we first got to Mexico, we hired a nanny through an agency. So, the nanny agency is great. They get a lot of these nannies to come to your home, hang out with the kids, feed them, and do whatever needs to be done throughout the day.

We realized very quickly that our son needed more than just our little condo and a nanny to hang out with. So, we enrolled him in an international school, a bilingual school. So, the great thing about so many of these capital cities or locations that we visit is that they have a huge international presence, which means they have international schools.

And so, I’ll break it down a little bit. For the international schools, you have the big names like the American school, the Canadian school, the British school, that’s the names of these schools, and mostly they’re tailored to diplomat families. Families whose parents maybe work for the embassy, and they need to be stationed there for X amount of time.

They also have smaller private schools that are bilingual. So just like in the States where kids want to have full immersion into another language. They have bilingual schools and that’s what our kids are enrolled in currently. I think I was always a little against homeschooling. I knew that I didn’t not want to be a homeschool parent.

And so, I was always on the lookout for how are kids going to have childcare and education? Currently, we’ve just found our groove with these private bilingual schools. And depending on where you live, the cost of these schools are much cheaper than what you’re paying for daycare in the U.S.

Matt Bowles: Well, you guys are also slow traveling, which I think is also a significant part of the type of strategy for how to do the education.

Can you share a little bit about your ideal lifestyle design at this point in your journey? How you’re going to choose to structure your life and your travels? And how long you’re going to stay in places and also selecting the next destination and then the next one.

Justin Orgias: So, for us, we like to have a home base in a home base that will really consist of staying somewhere between six months to a year or more.  So, at least six months in every location.  That doesn’t mean that we can’t leave the location and take another vacation or trip to scout out somewhere else.

But for example, here in Mexico, we signed a lease. So, this is our home base. It’s a fully furnished apartment. And. If we are going to stay for at least six months, we like to find a school for the kids.

If it’s going to be six months or less in a location, then we try to find a nanny or childcare because we don’t want to go through the paperwork, headache, and getting our kids adjusted to a school if we’re going to be there for less than a year. So ideally, that’s how we set up our life between six months to a year in a location.

In that time in between, we maybe take one or two scouting trips to another city. That way we’re not lugging all of our stuff around, because we’re a family of four, so no one wants to bring all of their stuff onto a plane, get there, and you may not like Airbnb, that’s chaotic. That’s how we lived last year, and it was kind of by accident.

It was amazing to see so many places, but it’s a lot with kids. So, the way I like to have it set up is to just stay for like six months to a year. You can get settled in, really get to know the city, and find childcare that your kids can actually get adjusted to in that time period.

Matt Bowles: So, of all the experiences that you have had so far on this journey, the lessons that you have learned in all of the things, the mistakes you’ve made, the highlights that have occurred, all this different stuff taken together, thinking back, what would, at this point, be some of your top tips or pieces of advice for parents that would like to do this with the family that is at the very early stage starting out on their journey?

Justin Orgias: I think planning for the best and expecting the worst is probably a vague tip, but it’s so true. So, like the pre-planning that goes into your travel, I think for me is going to like to make or break traveling with children.

Location wise, where are you going to be staying? Where is your Airbnb close to how do you plan to get around? Do you want a taxi everywhere? You’re going to rent a car or are you going to walk and just kind of plan out a little bit of like, what do you plan to do with your children when you get there?

Like what’s your daily routine going to look like to me that goes a long way. But also leaving room to be flexible and being able to pivot has been like our number one resource. I can’t tell you how many Airbnb’s we’ve checked into and it’s just like a mess. We’re like, “Oh God, how we’re supposed to be here for six weeks”?  Like, I don’t know.

So, maybe invest in some travel insurance and be able to pivot flexibly. It definitely goes a long way. I think the other thing is having some backup options is always a great idea. And just having your staples, right? Sticking to the routine has kept me sane through the digital nomad journey. Waking up at a certain time, getting my exercise in, eating right, staying healthy, that’s all important stuff.

Matt Bowles: Justin, I want to ask you a few reflective questions about the impact of all of this travel thus far on your journey. I want to ask you three questions and you can answer them in whichever order you want.

I know you said you hadn’t done a ton of international travel before you started this journey. So, I’m curious, first of all, what impact all this travel has had on you as a person. I’m also curious what impact travel has had on your marriage and your relationship with your wife. And then the third one is that I’m curious about what impact it has had on your kids or what impact you hope it will have on them as they grow up in this lifestyle.

Justin Orgias: So, I’ll start with me first. I think prior to a lot of international travel, I was very ignorant of a lot of history, you know, world history. And it’s funny that when I get somewhere new, I instantly want to look up why things are the way that they are in this city or in this country. And so, it’s made me more well-rounded as a person, more well read, smarter, you know?

But at the end of the day, I think like I’ve just gained a lot of knowledge from traveling, talking to people, boots on the ground, finding out what’s going on in politics here, what happened in history. And what’s currently going on today. I think Spain was a very good example of that. You know, obviously you see the Spanish architecture everywhere, but also the Arabic influence in Spain. Now there’s a lot of African immigrants living in Spain. What are they going through? And so, we’ve gotten to talk to a lot of these people and really get to know their story. And see different perspectives. Another impact it’s had on me is just being adaptable. I feel like I could be dropped off anywhere at this point and be able to navigate life you know what I mean?

It’s just like my problem-solving skills, my resilience, my adaptability has just come through the roof because I’ve gotten literally dropped off in the middle of nowhere in Mexico and been able to figure it out with kids.

And so, the impact on my marriage, I would say, has been at times a positive and at times a negative. I think that this is a stressful lifestyle to live. You don’t know what your day-to-day is going to always look like. And so, my wife and I have had numerous fights about small things. You’re just making decisions, big decisions all the time. But when we are in a good place, it’s like we’re energized. We’re excited about life. We have this new passion, this new flame. We’re meeting new people. And I think that just does something for your marriage as opposed to being stagnant, doing the same thing every day, seeing the same thing every day. Interacting with the same people every day, you know, and I think being away from our family so much has just made us more independent as a couple.

And lastly, the kids, I think I see so much growth in my son, right? He’s about to be five years old. He’s extremely outspoken. He’s extremely energetic. I think he’s a handful now, but as he gets older, he’s going to do amazing things. He’s not afraid to talk to strangers at all. It doesn’t matter what you look like, or who you are.

He’s seen so much and been exposed to so many people that he can strike up a conversation with anybody. And he’s so inquisitive. This is where, like the world schooling aspect, it comes in. I wouldn’t consider us a world schooling family, but our kids see statues or monuments in foreign countries and they ask, who is that person?

Why is there a statue of them here? Why are these trees yellow? I’ve never seen a yellow tree before. So, I stop and start Googling things with them and we’re learning together. Everything is a learning opportunity. So, getting out there, they haven’t spent most of their life in a classroom setting, really getting out there and being exposed to different languages is incredible for kids.

And so now our son knows a little bit of Spanish. He understands a good bit of Spanish and he’s starting to say words in Spanish as well. So, we’re hoping that he becomes a fluent bilingual speaker. And once he conquers Spanish, he can maybe learn Portuguese, Italian, and French, sky’s the limit for him. And my daughter as well.

Matt Bowles: I love that, man. Well, you and your wife have recently dropped the first season of your podcast, Elevated Perspectives. I’ve listened to a number of the episodes. And I really appreciated how thoughtful and substantive some of the discussions were that you and your wife will have on the podcast, talking about issues relating to travel ethics, like the impact of digital nomad gentrification on the cities where we travel, the dynamics of passport privilege, et cetera.

And I’m wondering at this point in your journey since you’ve been paying attention to those types of things, can you share any tips for all of us who would like to be more conscious travelers and make more thoughtful decisions as we move through the world?

Justin Orgias: Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, the first thing to consider is that you are visiting someone’s home.  I don’t care if you’re going to Las Vegas, Bali, Indonesia or Rio de Janeiro. As much as you’re there for your own experience, you’re also visiting someone’s home. People live here and people have grown up here. And so, I think obviously just treating places with respect as a traveler, making sure that you’re not littering, cleaning up after yourself, but also being mindful of your consumption and your impact on that place that you’re visiting.

Right now, basing in Mexico City has been a roller coaster of emotions. Because there is a huge topic of discussion around gentrification and how much American digital nomads are raising the prices for locals. There’s also a water crisis happening in the city as well. And so, we try to of course, be mindful of our water consumption, of our waste disposal as well, but also integrating with the society that you’re moving into is huge. I think a lot of times Americans don’t necessarily know how to be immigrants because we’ve never really been them before. So, if the local customs are to speak Spanish when you’re out and about, or to not flush toilet paper down the toilet, are to haggle with your landlord over pricing so you’re not paying gringo prices and raising the rent, you need to get on with what the locals are doing and get involved and keep an ear on the ground.  Or else you’re never really going to fully assimilate and you’re always going to probably cause issues and problems for the locals.

Matt Bowles: Another topic that you and your wife have discussed on the podcast is your experience traveling the world as a Black family, navigating anti-Blackness globally. And I’m wondering if you can share some reflections on that and also maybe some tips for Black travelers who might be at the earlier stage of their journey.

Justin Orgias: So, I always say we’re Black, no matter where we go. It’s the first thing people notice when I’m walking out of my building, walking up the street here in Mexico. But anti-Blackness looks different everywhere you go.

So, in the United States, it can sometimes be lethal—police brutality, or a neighborhood watch vigilante.  But in other countries, we don’t feel the same sense of danger around anti-Blackness. A lot of times it’s discrimination. So, your kind of is always wondering like, am I being discriminated against? Would I notice if I was being discriminated against and how are people of color generally treated here?

So, we do a lot of research before we go anywhere because I know how to handle racism or discrimination, but my kids may not. So, I never want to expose my kids to anything where it could be problematic. It’s funny, like here in Mexico City right now, there’s such a complexity around race and ethnicity because there’s a large Haitian population in Mexico City and in other parts of Latin America as well.

You have groups of other Black people in a city. You have the fact that you’re Black, but you’re an American with some privilege, so it’s really multifaceted. I would say for us, our experience through Latin America has been really amazing. I think people show a lot of respect and admiration to see Black people.

And the fact that we’re Black Americans just makes people more interested. On the flip side, I think people get a little too curious, and interested. They’ll ask, “hey, can I touch your hair? Can I take a picture with you?” They may have never seen a Black person before, but I’m not that guinea pig either. So, “no, you can’t touch my kid’s hair.”  Maybe a picture is okay.

But yeah, I mean, we stick out wherever we go. We’re Black, we’re not staking for Mexican or, uh, Latino, the only place where we could blend in that we’ve been so far was Brazil. But overall our experience as black people, we’ve always just wanted to show that black people can get out there, travel and live a thriving life abroad. There may be something better out there for you, or it could just be a great travel experience for you.

Matt Bowles:  Well, you and your wife are speaking this year at the upcoming Black Travel Summit. I am also going to be there. So, we are going to be hanging out in person for any of the listeners that would like to join us and hang out with us in person as well, can you share a little bit about the Black Travel Summit and what you’re going to be speaking about there?

Justin Orgias: I’m so excited for Black Travel Summit. October 10th, I believe it starts. We and a group of other panel speakers will be discussing their topics. A lot of us are either in the travel space as a career or content creators.

And so, for us, we’re going to be speaking about the digital nomad family lifestyle, how to get involved if you’re interested, and also what it’s been like, what our experience has been like. So, I think this podcast is a great precursor to that event, but I’m looking forward to meeting people.

I mean, there’s going to be big brands. They’re people from the Hyatt group who are going to be there. There are also going to be travel content creators there and also just people in tourism in general. So definitely looking forward to the event.

Matt Bowles:  All right. Well, if anybody is interested in joining us at the Black Travel Summit, it’s going to be in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. We’re going to link up in the show notes, a special discount link for Maverick show listeners. And then you can come and join us and hang out with me and Justin in person. And I think that is a great place to end the main portion of this interview. And at this point, Justin, are you ready to move in to the lightning round?

Justin Orgias: Oh, I think I’m ready. Let’s get it.

Matt Bowles:  Let’s do it. All right, what is one book maybe that has significantly impacted you over the years? You’d most recommend that people should read.

Justin Orgias: The Alchemist is one of my favorite books. I think I read it in high school, and it changed the way that I thought about just the coming-of-age story, travel, people, and alchemy.

Matt Bowles: All right, Justin, what is one travel hack that you use that you can recommend to people?

Justin Orgias: I have two. So, I love to wait till check-in. Before a flight to pick my seats on the plane, they’re free. If you wait until check-in, oftentimes the airline will charge you upwards of like $45 per seat. So, I always wait till check-in time to choose my seat on the plane.

And then if you are a parent traveling with kids, you get a free stroller to check, and we still travel with our stroller today and we stuff as much stuff as we can in the stroller bags. So hopefully airlines are not listening, but those are some travel hacks.

Matt Bowles:  All right, knowing everything that you know now. If you could go back in time and give one piece of advice to your 18-year-old self, what would you say to 18-year-old Justin?

Justin Orgias: Oh, I would say try more things. Pick up more hobbies. I was not a kid that was willing to try and fail at something. And now in my life, it’s like, I’ve tried like 50 things this year alone.

And some of them have been fun and some of them have gotten better at, and some of them I quit right away, but you never know what you’re going to be good at and where your value can be.

Matt Bowles: All right, of all the places that you’ve now traveled, what are three of your favorite destinations you would most recommend other people should definitely check out?

Justin Orgias: Okay. So, Rio de Janeiro, number one, Marrakesh, Morocco, number two. And I would say number three would be Amsterdam, Netherlands. I didn’t spend enough time there, but I would definitely go back.

Matt Bowles:  All right, what are your top three bucket list destinations? These are places you have not yet been, highest on your list you’d most love to see?

Justin Orgias: Man, I got to say Africa. So, South Africa, and Kenya are definitely on the list. And parts of Northern Europe. I really want to go to Denmark, one of the happiest places in the world.

Matt Bowles:  Nice. Well, I have been to South Africa multiple times. I’ve been to Kenya multiple times. They’re both super special places. So, when you are ready to plan those trips, my friend, hit me up.

All right, Justin, we have now come to the most important question of this interview. I am about to ask you to name your top five hip-hop emcees of all time. But before you name your five, can you just share a little bit about what hip-hop music means to you and why you love hip-hop?

Justin Orgias: Oh yeah, I mean, hip hop is, is everything to me.

From the time I was born, I listened to hip hop music played in the house. I have an older brother who put me into a lot of hip hop, and it’s, it’s such a wide range between conscious hip hop, the turn up club stuff, and it’s a huge part of my life. Every day.

Matt Bowles:  All right, Justin, who are your Top Five?

Justin Orgias: Definitely got to go with Nas. Biggie. Tupac.  And then the other two, I think I would leave room for Andre 3000 out of Atlanta and J Cole for the new school.

Matt Bowles:  That is a great list, my friend, and a great way to close out this interview. I want you to let folks know how they can find you, how they can follow you on social media. And how would you like people to come into your world?

Justin Orgias: Absolutely. You can find us at o.family.adventures on all platforms. So, YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram. And you can go to our website, orgiasfamilyadventures.com. And if you want to reach out to us, send us a DM, book a consultation through our website. If you’re interested in going to Noma Collective or Black Travel Summit, reach out. We will be there.

Matt Bowles:  Amazing. We are going to link all of that up in the show notes, so you can just go to one place at the.maverickshow.com. Go to the show notes for this episode. You’re going to find direct links for everything we discussed in this episode, all the ways to follow and connect with Justin, and your special discount code for joining us in person at the Black Travel Summit.

Justin, this was amazing, brother. Thank you for coming to the show.

Justin Orgias: Thanks for having me, man. And we’ll definitely stay connected. Can’t wait to meet you in person.

Matt Bowles:  Looking forward to it, my friend. Good night, everybody.